If anyones interested in hearing me...

[Nikk]

Josiah,

Let's just pretend for a moment that Vinnie didn't have impeccable chops, etc. He would still be a bad son of a bitch! You mentioned something about all the young dudes you know eventually surpassing Vinnie? Bullshit! I suspect you're of the school of younger kids who are all about the Marco Minnemans of the world...all single strokes, no musicality. Of course, I could be wrong. So, if I am, disregard the rest of this. The fact that you mention people "surpassing Vinnie" makes me think you look only to chops in gauging players. Well, shit, if you wanna think that way, then there are probably a hundred dudes in the industry who can play faster or longer or shoot flaming sticks outta their asses. The thing is, Vinnie's genius is in the shit he plays. It's the ideas, phrases, the groove, the feel, the sound, the attitude, and, yeah, the chops. It's scary to me that you equated yourself with Vinnie. Your attitude kinda sucks, man. I don't know how old you are, I'm 22 now. I wouldn't dream of coming on this forum and ever putting myself on a level with Vinnie! I'd have to kick my OWN ass. I know I'm sounding a bit rude here, I don't mean to. I just feel like someone needs to tell you this stuff. As for your mp3- do you listen to a lot of Carter Beauford? You sorta have that linear Beauford thing (not that he's the only one to do this of course.) Your toms sound nice. You play some interesting ideas. Sometimes you get lost in the ideas and abandon your concept of time, though. Always listen for the quarter note. I also wasn't sure how the random bebop ideas related to the overall musical picture. Watch out for the ambiguous left hand figures, be more articulate. Yes, I realize you were just screwing around. Soundin' good overall, man.

[beat Hit]

Josiah,

Thanks for sharing the clip. I agree with everyone's comments. So I simply say: Lots of potential, KEEP IT UP!!!

Derek's comment on humility sticks out though. Don't ever think you've arrived, it'll hurt you more than you think.

For me THE aspect of drumming that's THE major challenge is not chops, but TIME!! For exemple, if you bring a simple fill and it rushes, it's the music that suffers.

Strive to become a musician's drummer as you mature further. Porcaro has less chops than Vinnie, but man, can he ever have a beautiful sense of TIME!!! Peter Erskine is another master of this. I mean wow!!! Listen to Peter play on Eliane Elias "A long Story" and WHEUH!! Colorful musical time-keeping drumming at its best!! I am sure that you know that already but chops won't get you work, but time keeping will (among other things, like a professional positive attitude, getting along with others.)

That's another aspect of Vinnie's genius, how he keeps the whole TIME aspect of a song. I can't explain it, but does it ever flow beautifully in EVERY context. I am thinking of some Sting stuff, or even the 1st track in 11 from Karizma "Document". The 1st track from Alan Holdsworth "Secret" (recorded on 1st take I think) is a total time-keeping KNOCK OUT!!! Everything flows, ghost notes in its right place, tension, big listening ears, etc....

All the best to you Josiah!!

[XNavyDrummer]

Josiah,

The release thing is where you actually allow the stick to rebound off the head as opposed to actively bringing the stick back off the head. This leads to less work and a better sound.

What kind of kit did you play in this sample?

[mja61]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2003 11:17 PM: Message edited by: mja61 ]</font>

[mja61]

Josiah,

I didn't have a chance to listen to your MP3 yet (which may actually make my comments more unbiased.) I think my comment actually skews in favor of Josiah (and other drummers who are not named Vinnie Colaiuta).

I think Vinnie is awesome, just like the rest of you guys (well, "most," anyways). However, sometimes I think our opinions are biased based on who's playing. Let me give an example...

I saw Jack DeJohnette with Giovanni Hidalgo a few years ago. It was just drums and percussion, everything improvised, small theater setting, etc. The played several duets and each took a solo. Giovanni's solo was not bad, but I was VERY dissapointed with DeJohnette's: sloppy, tasteless, boring, unemotional. I'm not a huge DeJohnette fan, but he generally is credited with being a "genius" or "legend," so I can respect that. (I'll just mention that I have also heard him play things I thought were quite good.) His solo basically sounded like nothing more than a four-year old generating random noise on a drumkit. Needless to say, the audience absolutely ate it up!

Now I can guarantee you all one thing: if I had gotten up on that stage, and played that very solo note for note (which, quite frankly, I think I could have done simply by emptying my stick bag over the drumkit), I would have gotten booed into another area code. But DeJohnette can get away with it because of his reputation and who he's played with.

Gregg Bissonette made a similar comment in a recent drum clinic. He said he was hanging out with Weckl behind Elvin during a solo. Gregg said to Dave, "Man, if you or I played like that on a gig, we'd be fired!" But Elvin gets away with it because he's Elvin.

Point being, sometimes it's not WHAT is being played, but rather WHO is doing the playing that fans are looking for. I've heard even Vinnie play some things that were not that great, athough admittedly, that is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to Vinnie.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2003 11:15 PM: Message edited by: mja61 ]</font>

[shedder]

(which, quite frankly, I think I could have done simply by emptying my stick bag over the drumkit)

LOL.

[JosiahM]

Thats kidna the point I was getting at.. and is totally the truth..

there were times at PIT, where we'd be watchin something form a "name" drummer.. and certian teachers would be all over it, like it was godly, while.. not in the same room and in front of them other teachers would be like "i really didn't think it was that good, but had I said something.. because of who it was"

In a class, a student mentioned seeing a particular rock drummer play something, he mentioned he was doing 16ths on the ride at about 120bpm and this teacher, rebuked him stating if he was able to play one hnded 16ths at 120bpm he'd be doing clinics.. now, i didn't say anything at the time.. but that is a stament that is completelly false.. I can do one handed 16ths at 120.. as can most, if not all accomplished drummers.. my point.. this teacher was putting down a particular drummer, because of his name, without even having heard the thing that was played, he starts trashing hte guy for his name, and having a rep as a rocker...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2003 11:03 PM: Message edited by: JosiahM ]</font>

[chris perra]

josiah.

16ths at 120 with one hand is pretty burnin, for anyone... i could do it for awhile, but would be hard pressed to shape any tone or feel while doing it, all i could do at that speed is pound it out and hope the cramping would go away. just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should...

your mp3 was cool, it takes some guts to put yourself out on the net knowing that you could be ripped on by people that can find flaws in all the heavies, even vinnie.

i think you have gained alot of knowledge and you practice alot. what would probably help you the most is gigging lots, getting yelled at lots and trying to keep a level head in the mean time.

to me, if you temper all the licks and tricks with an underlying pulse, i would like you're playing more.

throughout all the blazing sticks on fire anticks for it to be really heavy there has to be a pulse. what i hear is fragmented ideas that on there own are pretty cool , but lack flow, and a musical thread. to me what makes all the greats so amazing is there ability to give you a sense of security that the groove is always there no matter what.

without developing a strong pulse you're life will be hell... you'll have all this ability, chops, and knowledge but will never get any true respect because in the end people respect drummers with killer time over killer chops.

i know a couple guys that are constantly angry, disgrunteld and feel that they get no respect because no one gets there amazing abilities. in reality no one likes to play with them because all there doing is playing crap all over everything, and there sense of time sucks

i would sit down with a click, preferably something with all the subdivisions and play you're stuff, but really break it down, and make sure you can do it in time and have it all together.

some of the timing problems are caused by the difference in the left hand vs the right, go really slow with a click playing the subdivisions you are doing and clean it up, then crank up the speed.

that said, you are totally on the right track, and by putting yourself out on the line like this is really comendable and you will go far if you continue to ask other drummers there honest opinion and implement the things you think are valid.

good luck

chris perra

[beat Hit]

Nice reply Chris, positive and encouraging.

[JosiahM]

Hey thanks..

yea.. that is true.. pulse.. must work on..

As far as the other guy said about vinnie being musical.. and all that. I mean.. if you want to take that stacne tehn you'd better be a bit more careful. Because several people, watchign this same player, at the same gig said 2 different thigns.. but you know what the common thread was.. "the chops were on, but the groove was not" so.. I'm not quite getting what you were meaning.. now granted vinnie is great with some crazy musical ideas. and keep in mind what i said, but what you read. I said I.. and many others could throw licks around all day.. wich is true. I've seen a lot of vinnie live, and frankly, half the stuff is like that other guy said.. "why is this here..." it's a lot of chops.. but the chops mean jack without the groove, and it is not an uncommon story for vinnie to really lay down chops.. that music with lando, frankly, musicality being an opinionated art (who was better van gough or monet?) a lot of those chops were deffinantly out there and unrealted to the music.. even on records this is the case.

but then.. if musicality is your judging point, and feel.. then it's an opioniated art, and indeed no one is better then another. There can never be a best at any given art form, by the very deffinintion of art.

so then you have to judge on somethign else since the musicality is not judgable factor.

what is left?

chops.. pure chops. since the musicality is unjudgeable, it must come down to something concrete and applicably messureable. wich then leads us to, who is fastest? most complex? (note: NOT CREATIVE - since creativity is art)

Now all that said, my statement still remains true, there will come those who can out chop vinnie. if you enjoy there musical opinions and how they express themselfs musically through those chops, that is one thing.. if not it's another.. but still.. it's their ideas, there art.

I can't judge art, it is not judgeable.

Now think on this.. an older gentaleman, NOT A MUSICIAN, NOT A DRUMMER, goes to that club to hear this music.. and walks away thinking.. wow that drummer played a lot of notes, but the music itself was, well lacking in something.. groove feel, something..

Now i ask you, how was this a great drummer? He failed to provide the essential thing to the purpose of being in a band, to make the music feel good.

point of all this.. yes, there will come those who blow away others with chops. yes, there will comes those who have a more inate sense of musicality and a perceived to be even more 'creative'. at the same time, everyone is unique..

BTW I have honestly never heard marco minniman, in fact I had never heard vinnie til I weant to a drumming school and heard of him. And sufice to say, I would still rather here someone else play tradional jazz then vinnie.. I don't listen to much carter actually.. some people concive a lot of things as cocky, or not humble, but at the same time i think thinking higher produces higher results, at least i've found this to be true in other venues of life.. granted there is a middle ground.. but hey i'm young and dumb.. still feeling my way out in the world..

i thank everyones comments on my playing.. i figured people would tie my comments on vinnies playing with any of my own..

the set is a yamaha beech custom (8,10,14,16) with clear emps, the bass drum is a 20" dw maple, the snare is a 13x5 dw maple..